Dear Mr. Carlson and Mr. Howse…
This post is in response to a comment made by Jason Carlson on Tina’s blog, and also in response to an article written by Brannon Howse on Christian Worldview Network.
Jason,
I appreciate you wanting to defend your friend. He probably is a very nice guy and very zealous to keep the integrity of the gospel, so are we.
I would like to clarify something. The mystic language that Alex uses has nothing to do with Mosaic. Alex has a disclaimer on his blog (www.alexmcmanus.org) to the fact that his opinions and ideas are his and no one should connect them to Mosaic, thus hopefully, saving Mosaic a whole lot of trouble =)
The language is not misleading in any way, except maybe for sophisticated westerners who forgot the fact that our guidebook, the Bible, is in fact a book of mysteries. The events surrounding our Savior’s birth are very mystical to me. A young woman being pregnant without ever having sex? Did she not communicate with one from beyond - an angel? How about the three Wiseman? One of them was an astrologer, and they followed a star to the birth site, Etc. Are you kidding me? If it wasn’t for the mystic encounter I had with the Creator of the universe himself, it would be very hard for me to swallow these claims.
I wonder what Mr. Howse would say about these events if they weren’t in the scriptures we all hold so dear. Perhaps, next time he writes a piece that attacks people he doesn’t know and institutions he has never set his feet in, he might want to take the time as a columnist, to call the people and ask some questions so he can write an informed piece. I’m sorry he’s confused, but I see no loving Christian spirit in slandering others because he doesn’t fix his confusion by asking questions. I would have more respect for his article and him if he had asked questions, even if he had written the same article afterwards. At least I would have known that he tried to understand but his sophistication just wouldn’t allow it.
I think at this point, the only right thing for Mr. Howse to do is to write up a public apology to everyone he might, or might not, have hurt because of his mistakes and confusion, including defaming the good name of Bethel University, formerly known as Bethel Seminary, just as quickly as he was to write his article.
Btw, I am Alex’s wife and I know how much my husband loves Jesus. He was an atheist before he came to the realization that there is a God and surrendering his life into the saving arms of Christ. I am not angry with Mr. Howser… I just don’t like gossip.
March 7th, 2006 at 9:35 am
After reading that article I was also trying to figure out how nothing seemed mystical to him. I have a math degree and analyze everything, but I know reason has its limits. Like you said, virgin births and visions of angels are pretty mystical.
March 7th, 2006 at 10:01 am
Nice one lady! Well said…
If our God was a god that we could understand…what sort of God would he be? Without meaning to be nasty, I feel sorry for that man in a way. He obviously thinks he knows it all, yet it is so apparent that he has not experienced a real, living relationship with Jesus.
Perhaps that is too mystical for him…
(Niza..thanks for your welcome a few weeks ago… I never got to reply!)
March 7th, 2006 at 10:44 am
His article was painful for me to read for all of you directly associated. I am shocked that he made no attempt to speak with any of you before publishing your information on his site. I have made the mistake of publishing before I had all the information, in a much smaller way, but I would think that a profesional - and a person who calims to be a true follower of Christ - would have taken more pains for the sake of peace.
But, on the other end, I am hopeful that this may open up dialogue? We should always be refined, and I know we can learn from this.
I speak to our Father concerning you and your family as always.
March 7th, 2006 at 11:00 am
NIza…you are a warrior…much love to you and your household.
March 7th, 2006 at 11:30 am
Niza:
I have to say that I am grateful for Alex and his efforts to advance the cause of Christ and how he has inspired me in my own journey and spoken into my life. I am also pained that someone would write such things about a man that they obviously know very little about, but it is the trend on that particular website to attack certain leaders. There is absolutely nothing positive to be said there. Anyway, thank you and Alex both, for who you are and what you do.
March 7th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Niza, my suggestion to Alex was the guy is a just a “balloon” So next time your feel you ire rising because of what he said, you have my permission to say in a real thick Scottish accent, “HE”S A BALLOON” a couple of times, that should lower your level of frustration and lower this self-styled igorant heresy hunter to the level he sould be at, that of being a joke!
March 7th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
—->”The language is not misleading in any way, except maybe for sophisticated westerners who forgot the fact that our guidebook, the Bible, is in fact a book of mysteries.”"I am not angry with Mr. Howser…”
March 7th, 2006 at 2:12 pm
Okay, that was annoying. For some reason it dumped most of my comment…
When you said this:
“The language is not misleading in any way, except maybe for sophisticated westerners who forgot the fact that our guidebook, the Bible, is in fact a book of mysteries.”
My thought was, Wow. I must be a “sophisticated westerner…” because it seems to me that the language here has great potential for being misleading. Especially for those of us who don’t get the metaphors surrounding “the mystic” and for those of us who have had enough experience with the occult to have negative spiritual images attached to some of the language and terms co-opted on Vox blogs.
This statement hurt me. I felt insulted and belittled because I don’t understand the mystic, and because I feel that some of the language used here is misleading to many who aren’t on the inside (of “the mystic”).
And when you said,
“I’m not angry with Mr. Howser…”
I thought: Really? This post sounds quite angry. And deservedly so! The guy attacked your husband. You have every right to be angry. I’d be so pissed I’d be spitting nails.
I love you so much, Niza! My heart breaks for you with the crap this guy wrote. I really LOVE James’ suggestion… I think just hearing a Brazillian speak with a thick Scottish brogue is enough to take the edge of the pain.
(and make me laugh really hard!!)
March 7th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
hey everyone,
thanks for your comments. let’s all take a deep breath now…
i would like to caution you on judging mr. howse on his faith. i personally believe that in fact he might be a follower and very concerned about how the gospel is being portrayed by those, like us, also claiming to be “christians”. but then again, i don’t know the man.
lu, i love you too and in no way meant to hurt you or anyone like you. i see a huge difference between you and mr. howse and those who attack without trying to understand where the other person is coming from. i’ve known you for a long time and consider you one of my closest friends, so i know that if you don’t get something you ask for clarification. that little action keeps the doors open for communication and respect.
it’s hard to convey attitude through words so all i’m going to say is that if you were standing next to me, you would in fact see a woman who WAS hurt and WAS angry but IS no longer angry… really. a woman who wishes there was more respectful communication within the Body so that there was less disharmony.
i pray that mr. howse keeps doing his work (that includes more research) and continues to expose the real dangers to our faith. i pray for wisdom for all of us as we all are working out our faith the best we know how… and in the end “may the triumph of Christ resound in all the earth”
March 7th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
OK…so I checked out this guy’s site and I laughed my way through the article. I relly hope you guys saw through it and didn’t take it to heart. Dissention and in-fighting is exactly what Satan wants. If this is the first guy to not get the Mystic, I’ll be shocked. If everyone got it, there would really be no mystery, would there?
March 7th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
It is often a long process of stripping through past religious terminology and beliefs to cut through to the naked core of the cross. There’s often much re-building of new vocabulary, developing of a fresh and clean way of thinking, learning to question, learning how to relate to present day culture, and actually caring about loving God and reaching out to the lost in love. So I think it’s understandable that this guy (and others) would react strongly, though I hugely disagree with how he went about it. Perhaps he’ll learn in time….
But for now, I am honored to join with you and Alex and Dean and Tina, and everyone who is willing to pioneer, or press-on in a flow contrary to popular Christian religious practices. I love you!
March 7th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Wow girl. I’ve been away for a few days and had no idea. If you spend any amount of time on their website you will see the obvious that they are very fundamentally and doctrinally based with no room for mystery. IMHO that is very sad as everybody needs to have balance with the basics and apologetics of our faith but also leave room for dreaming, hoping and imagination.
Mr. Howser (I believe) mentione the seek and you will find passage…I wonder if he has overlooked the “seek” part…as that is the journey of unknown we are on.
I love you girl…so much, and I am so sorry that people in our own family have attacked you. I love you guys so much!!!!
March 7th, 2006 at 5:58 pm
Wow!
It looks like I missed something…I’m glad I did. Ok, so I am totally clueless and thus blessed. But I must say that you have offered a fine apologetic of the mystic. As one ancient blogger put it…
The mystery is that people who have never heard of God and those who have heard of him all their lives (what I’ve been calling outsiders and insiders) stand on the same ground before God. They get the same offer, same help, same promises in Christ Jesus. The Message is accessible and welcoming to everyone, across the board.
March 7th, 2006 at 8:09 pm
Mr. Howse refuses to correct his errors - please read his latest response to all the criticism that has come his way at http://www.samrima.typepad.com/
He is really unbelievable - Why does he spend his time attacking people who believe in Christ? What a waste of time. It is really sad.
March 7th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
Hey Niza,
It was great to meet you in person. I loved your music. I hope to see you again someday.
Peace to you, keep loving in the name of Christ.
Jason
March 7th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Oh, I wish I WERE standing right beside you! I SO miss you, friend. I wanted to call you tonight but a fever I’ve been fighting since late last night kept me couch-ridden and in a misty fog of my own (but yes, like a trooper–or is that dork????– I DID go to work today…)
I know you didn’t mean to hurt me and I took no offense at it; and certainly didn’t take it to heart. But I do know — unfortunately from experience — that we need to be careful how we say things on our blogs, because people can be hurt by the words we write. People can misunderstand and take offense where we meant none. Blogs are not the best way to communicate….
Adria has a post that I think speaks to the heart of what I am trying to say. But she says it better, and more succinctly. So I’ll shut up and now and let her words speak. It’s here: http://adria.voxtropolis.com/2006/03/04/thoughts-after-the-initial-rant/
March 7th, 2006 at 9:51 pm
again… thanks everyone for your comments.
lu - you are so right. i try to be very careful with my writing. perhaps that’s why i often write about nothing too important or i take way too long to post anything. although i’m from brazil, i consider myself a westerner and i like to think that i’m somewhat sophisticate too, so i wasn’t meaning to put down all sophisticated westerners, only those who attack other’s ideas without asking questions to try to understand where they’re coming from.
luv ya =) hope you get better. is anyone there taking care of you? see, if you were still here i’d bring you some chicken noodle soup… muah!
March 7th, 2006 at 11:06 pm
Hey All… I discovered these articles a couple of weeks back and I think the best response we can have is to stay on mission and not let this become a distraction. I think that is giving Brannon and the Worldview weekend people too much of our time.
March 8th, 2006 at 6:37 am
Whadaya mean “if you were here…” Heck, girl! Just hop on a plane and come over HERE.
I will take a big bowl of chicken soup to go, please!
PS — my landlady did drop by last night and pampered me a little. I may go to their house tonight for a little more…
March 8th, 2006 at 7:19 am
I’m with you peter…good to see you.
March 8th, 2006 at 8:11 am
Hey Niza,
First let me say, I love you guys. I stumbled across Alex’s xanga maybe a year or so ago and have been joining in the conversation off and on since.
I do agree Mr. Howes should have done a lot more before writing the article. But I have to agree. When I first read the search for the mystic… the language was a bit confusing. Of course it took me all of 15 minutes to realize it was a literary device… But for some, I can certainly see how some of the terminology can be confusing.
For us to assume it isn’t confusing at all, well, thats not right either. I mean, it’s just like anything else. When you get a group of people in community they begin to develop a language. Same thing goes for his church as well. Imagine… some stranger walking off the street… and he hears… “You have to be covered in the blood of Jesus” Now THAT could be confusing! To people not familiar with the language of a community certain phrases can be confusing.
I loved his definition of mystical:
According to Webster’s dictionary, mystical is “having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence.�
I was thinking… ummm yeah… that would be GOD. He is Spiritual. He is reality. You can’t see him. You can’t intellectually comprehend all that is God. He is mystical.
I’m sure in those same circles they would say.. “It has to go from head knowledge to heart knowledge” without realizing they are really saying the same thing.
While I don’t agree with the things he points out, I do think it provides a good opportunity to step back away from ourselves and see what other people see. I’m not saying change who you are because of what someone else thinks. But use it as a moment to pause, step back, and evaluate things.
March 8th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
ooops forgot to click the notify me box
March 9th, 2006 at 7:39 am
Niza, big hugs from the Midwest! I am sad but not too surprised at this whole thing. My background is very similar to the “Christian Worldview” people, very us vs. them instead of the unity Jesus pleaded to the Father on our behalf in John 17. I am more determined to love,love,love than ever!
March 9th, 2006 at 7:51 am
Hey folks!
How about this for an idea…let’s all pray for Mr. Howse!
I reckon if we pray for him, God will step in and change his heart. Let’s love him til he asks why. I know in a previous post that I maybe seemed to slate him a bit…sorry for that.
So let’s ask God to reveal himnself afresh to Mr. Howse - in whatever way is necessary. Let’s pray for the man and stand back and let God do his thing.
Perhaps this is God giving us a context to change the man’s life? How much glory would it bring God to see this man’s heart change?
What do you say?
March 9th, 2006 at 8:12 am
What is this Emerging Church he is describing?
March 9th, 2006 at 8:29 am
peter - i agree with you that this is only a distraction. i haven’t let it get in the way of anything but i sure felt i needed to address it, if anything, just to get it off my chest.
lu - are you feeling better?
brian - you know what? i so see your point and i agree. language can be such a tricky thing so i repent. i remember when i first came to the US and was learning english. slangs were confusing until i understood the meaning. i did ask though what the words meant and was able to appreaciate how they were being used. i can see how christianese and biblical language can be not only confusion but scary =) i like what waywardsaint.voxtropolis.com sad in his post about this whole thing: “we’re not the new age mystics, we are the christian mystics”… i love it!
laurie - thanks. i also wish there could be unity within the church but i have a feeling that’s never going to happen. too many people with too many ideas and ways of going about things, and too many people lacking grace and understanding for one another. but let’s keep praying, it is the work of the Holy Spirit… hey, here’s another scary term =)
nozza - yes, let’s pray for a heart change not just for him but let’s also pray for ourselves. i have to deal with this kind of thing a lot because of who my husband is - a leader, pioneer, idea man, etc. actually i’ve dealt with this kind of thing since childhood - my father is a pastor. i need prayer ’cause sometimes i just get sick and tired of people condemning how others go about executing the great commission… i just want to scream and write up some nasty stuff too. then i take a deep breath and think this is a distraction to the mission i’ve been given… like peter pointed out.
March 9th, 2006 at 6:07 pm
When I first heard Alex speak, I was a little surprised by the “mystic” references, but the more I thought about it, especially in the context of what I know he believes about God and His word, I understood. If it weren’t for a mystic and miraculous birth, we would never have received the gift of Life. And this life transcends the world where we currently reside. It is a life that is fullest when it’s lived in awareness of the spiritual battles we fight daily.
One last thought - That guy’s website is just horrendous.
March 10th, 2006 at 8:13 am
hi beth - are you revzwife beth?
albert - i’ll be answering your question on my next post. i’m doing a little reasearch myself =)
March 11th, 2006 at 1:16 am
WOW!! I NEED TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM…how about THurs. pm??
Let me know.
March 14th, 2006 at 4:26 am
Niza if you are looking at the Emerging Church, the biggest survey so far done has been published by Eddie Gibbs in a book called \”Emerging Churches\” interestingly he does not include Mosaic as an emerging church, I think he believes it is a GenX Mega church
March 14th, 2006 at 9:15 am
I found this site: http://www.emergingchurch.org/ Anybody know anything about this site?
March 15th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Now they are aiming at Rick Warren:
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/cwnetwork/article.php?&ArticleID=558
What’s the purpose of this organization? Do they exist to simply criticize?
March 15th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Yes, they are parasitic, they live off other ministries.
March 16th, 2006 at 8:46 pm
I have no problem with anything Alex or Dean or anyone of you guys are doing.
I continue daily on my journey into the mystic.
I would love to be a part of your community, and I have had several conversations with Dean about the Mystic Nation.
THAT SAID, I agree that Alex’s language was intentionally confusing. It was shrouded in mystery. I thought that was kind of the point. It’s not like he won’t clear it up for those who are willing to seek the answer. Okay, so Dean is good at question evasion … but curiosity ressurects the cat, no?
March 28th, 2006 at 7:03 pm
Niza……………where aaaaaaaare you? Hope you’re doing well lady…just checking on you.
love love.
March 30th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Niza,
Thanks for all that you and Alex do for young people all over the world. Sorry to hear of the recent slander. I’m sure it’s not the first, and probably not the last I suppose. When you rock the boat, people get scared. Continue to forge into the future and speak a language that’s needed to reach the new western world. Oh yeah…thanks for the welcome on my new vox blog. I’m really looking forward to joining this community.
April 3rd, 2006 at 9:36 pm
I’m glad to read and catch up with you! I think it’x crazy HOW LONG it’s been!! Thanks for your updates and all of your support!!
April 30th, 2006 at 5:31 pm
I realize I’m coming into this conversation a little late, but I was
compelled to after reading an article that demonstrates just how
far some Christians have fallen away from the true gospel.
I couldn’t believe what I was reading, that a respected (and
unnamed) Christian leader would seemingly minimize the
difference between Christianity and other religions. In fact he
seems to compliment them simply for being religious, instead of
pointing out the falsity of their beliefs.
He doesn’t seem to differentiate between the One TRUE God
and the “gods” of other religions. He blurs the distinction
apparently in an attempt to be cool or postmodern, or perhaps to
appear to be culturally relevant instead of trying to make a real
impact on a spiritually darkened people.
Never once does he quote a passage of scripture, but instead
refers to a secular poet and even tries to build an argument for
Christianity on it in an attempt to be cutting edge.
And reminiscent of the New Age Movement, he refers to the
Eternal God as the “Divine Nature”, and states that he is very
near to each one of us, believer and nonbeliever.
This is just another example of how far off some believers, even
church leaders can be in their teachings. The article can be read
here:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2017:22
-31;&version=49
April 30th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
My apologies; I guess cut-and-pasting my reply wasn’t the best choice, huh?
P.S. Try http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2017:22-31;&version=49
April 30th, 2006 at 6:54 pm
bill - haha… good one =)
April 30th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
btw, in case you didn’t follow the link, this is what bill is refering to:
Acts 17:22-31 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
Sermon on Mars Hill
22So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of (A)Athens, I observe that you are very (B)religious in all respects.
23″For while I was passing through and examining the (C)objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD ‘ Therefore what (D)you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
24″(E)The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is (F)Lord of heaven and earth, does not (G)dwell in temples made with hands;
25nor is He served by human hands, (H)as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
26and (I)He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having (J)determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, (K)though He is not far from each one of us;
28for (L)in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’
29″Being then the children of God, we (M)ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30″Therefore having (N)overlooked (O)the times of ignorance, God is (P)now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed (Q)a day in which (R)He will judge (S)the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has (T)appointed, having furnished proof to all men by (U)raising Him from the dead.”
June 7th, 2006 at 11:30 am
I am very late to this discussion, but it’s awesome to read the thoughts and spirit with which you interact. I know what it’s like to be misunderstood and then wrongfully criticized by a brother in Christ, and it’s nothing short of frustrating.
You and Alex are apparently great encouragements to everyone who knows you, and thanks so much for your heart and openness on the Vox!